SMWX

00:00 I get a call from a senior government official that this man is the president's funder. 00:10 So I mustn't touch him. I've yet to see an ethical leader in South Africa. 00:15 I don't think there is. 00:17 In the sphere of politics, there are none. We are a nation yearning for success, yearning for heroes. In South Africa, when you've done something wrong, you find a political solution. 00:31 And that political solution depends on which side you are. 00:38 If you're moving up, your money should too. That's why with the Standard Bank Prestige Banking Account, you can now invest your monthly bank fees into top-listed companies around the world through Shift. Open a Standard Bank Prestige Bank Account and turn everyday banking into long-term wealth building. Live wealthier with Standard Bank Private. Click the link in the description for more info. Standard Bank is an authorized FSP and registered credit provider. T's and C's apply. 01:11 Prof. Malikha Puru Machoba is one of the most interesting and important voices in South African public leadership over the last 30 years. Not only is he a celebrated immunologist and academic, he's also served in administrative academic leadership capacities in South Africa's higher education institutions, as well as as in a number of capacities in state-owned entities and public institutions. He's recently written a book on South African leadership for transformation since the dawn of democracy, and he joins us today to reflect on the state of our country. 01:48 Professor Mahoba, thank you so much for joining us on SMWX. 01:51 Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a great honor to be here. 01:56 It's an honor to have you. Can we begin with a recent column you wrote, which reflected on the Constitutional Court's judgment around the impeachment process? You spoke about this as an important moment for our constitutional democracy. 02:11 Yes. 02:12 I thought that... 02:14 I think the constitutional court did us a great favor as a democracy. I think to put us back to where I think we should have been at the time when this report was produced. But the parliament being parliament at that time, It took a different course and it was important for the Constitutional Court to correct that mistake and to correct it unambiguously with clarity and there was no doubt what needed to be done. 02:50 For me, it was very simple and straightforward. What parliament needed to do, what the speaker needed to do, and how the process needed to be followed without making it complicated. I think in that way, I thought it was an excellent judgment. 03:10 Yes, and you reminded us not to get too hysterical about all of this, to let the institutions who are tasked with discharging these constitutional responsibilities to do their work. 03:22 Yeah, that's all that I think the Constitutional Court said, that allow the impeachment committee to do its work. Because really, the committee doesn't impeach. It is to find facts. 03:38 And I mean, since the Palapala scandal, most of us are wondering what exactly happened. I mean, most South Africans. And it's important, I think, for us to know because none of the bodies that have investigated have actually done what I would call a complete job. And it is these defects and the fact that I think the president has not testified, although he has made it clear that he has done nothing wrong. 04:10 Now, I think the nation wants him to go public and tell them why he has not done anything wrong. I mean, it's as simple as all that. 04:22 And as you mentioned in the column... 04:25 The president may well be vindicated if he's able to bring a solid case to the committee. So again, this is not about a final determination of guilt, as it were. This is a process of openness and transparency. 04:36 Yeah, of accountability. 04:39 And also of something else that the president talks about, ethical leadership. There is something about ethics. It's not like the law. 04:50 It is how you are perceived and how... you analyze the issues of right and wrong, bad or good. That's what ethics is about. It's not about the fact that you'll go to jail for it, but it's about how you are seen as a person of integrity, of honesty, of principles. All of those things are what constitute good ethical leadership. Now, unfortunately, I have to say this, I've yet to see an ethical leader in South Africa. 05:23 I don't think there is. I mean, in the sphere of politics, there are none. They all speak about it. They all sing about it at rallies. 05:35 But when it comes to the practicalities, you don't see any ethical leadership. 05:41 What do you think ethical leadership would look like in our politics? You've obviously spoken about this in your important book about leadership for transformation since the dawn of democracy. 05:51 Yeah, I mean, you know, ethics is about, you know, the philosophy of morality of what is good and bad and what is truthful and not truthful. 06:05 And I think when you look at the leadership that you have, we have not had people who speak the truth. 06:13 We have people who ban the truth or avoid the truth. 06:17 And as such, it's difficult to find somebody who the nation can say is truthful as a leader, is honest as a leader, is principled as a leader, has integrity as a leader. We all... 06:33 have some doubts, you know? I'm not saying that the leaders are bad, but this quality in our politics, it's lacking. 06:42 Very true. And you wrote that important book, which I referred to, which really traced the genesis and evolution of leadership over the last, well, back then it was about 30 years. 06:54 And you've had a front row seat in many ways. You've also been a protagonist in our democratic project. 07:01 Can we go back to the beginning? Because you speak even about your experiences of the leadership under Mandela. 07:08 Yeah. 07:09 Take us back to that era and what do you think was productive and maybe if any mistakes were made in that moment of our democratic life? 07:18 Well, I mean, I met Mandela, I think just maybe a year after he was released, I think through Alfred Nzo, who was the General Secretary of the ANC at the time. 07:33 Wow. 07:35 I had been asked to go and see him at the headquarters of the ANC then. 07:41 And I remember that the chief of staff was Barbara Masekela and Jesse Tuwate. They ushered me into his office and I discovered that he seems to know a little bit more about me, but I obviously knew a lot about him too. All he said to me was, he asked me two questions, are you a member of the ANC? I said, no. 08:03 And he said, Are you coming back to the country? I was still in the UK. 08:08 Right. 08:09 I said, I hadn't thought about it, but it may be something worth considering. He says, no, we're creating a new country. We want to bring people together and we need all our brains around. And I think it will be... good if you came back or considered coming back. 08:28 But then he said, I'm going to make sure that before you leave here, you sign to become a member of the ANC. 08:35 So he wanted to recruit you. Well, that's quite a... How do you say no? 08:41 I got nervous. I didn't say anything. 08:44 And we kept on talking about his plans and so forth. And then fortunately, somebody more important than me came and wanted to see him, and Barbara and Jesse came and whisked him away, and that's how I survived. 09:03 It was not... And then I had to go, but basically, yeah, that's how I survived, not joining the ANC at that time, because he said, I'm taking you downstairs to the Secretary General's office. 09:17 Yeah, we're going together. 09:19 Wow, that's amazing. But really, I think... 09:24 I have thought about when Mandela was alone maybe in Robben Island or at Victor Ferster and he was being approached by these Afrikaners like whoever were sent to see him. 09:42 I think he had a big dilemma. 09:45 about really what option he had to choose. I mean, the negotiation pathway or just stick to the old idea of, you know, the struggle carries on and we have MK and what will make the country ungovernable. 10:03 And I think he also had the wisdom to see that the economy of the country and the relationships between the various components of the country, black and whites, Indians, Africans, you know, the various tribes, were really going down the drain. 10:22 The country was polarizing rather than coming together. 10:26 And I think he opted, I think, for this concept of reconciliation, which I think was an excellent idea, and that you can transform the country by trying to build relationships between people. 10:44 Because then we become a united nation, we focus on, we choose certain priorities, we do them together. 10:54 At some point or another, we kept on doing that, but moving back. Doing that, moving back. And we have not actually resolved the issue of social cohesion in South Africa. 11:06 Very true. 11:07 We have not really resolved the issue of being a nation. 11:12 Mm-hmm. 11:13 We all recognize ourselves as South African, but we have not actually come together to say what type of South Africans are we together, not separately. I mean, everybody accept that we are a diverse group of people, but there are certain commonalities that we don't seem to all embrace. We embrace this, one day, the next day it falls apart. You know, when there's a big rugby game, we're all together, and the following day we're swearing at each other. 11:45 You know, it's a very... 11:49 Whether this is part of development... 11:52 or it's a long journey, I don't know, but I think that the decision that Mandela and his colleagues took to say, let's build a nation together, reconcile people together and see ourselves as a nation that is diverse, that has got certain common things to do and common objectives. I thought that was an excellent idea. Of course, there are those that see him as having sold up because he didn't stick to the absolute line that I think most of us would have thought when we were young and you know when you're young you think you can change the world you can kick doors and do those I think he was wiser more than us and that was the right decision so and when he made those the country settled and supported him and we had a an optimistic nation. 12:57 We were all hopeful. We all saw South Africa as the place to be. I mean, even our African-American brothers started coming back into South Africa. 13:09 And of course, many Africans wanted to come to South Africa. So it was an era of hope, an era of positive energy. And as South Africans, we felt like we were hot things on the planet everybody spoke about us everybody took us as an example you know wherever there are conflicts i mean they would call one of us and like people like cyril would be called because they were part of this process so that era was a was good for south africa but Again, that I made a decision that I'm only going to run for one term. 13:55 I'm too old. 13:57 I need to be with my family and I need to obviously enjoy life a little bit. 14:02 And he left and then we had our second president. 14:07 Before we move on to the Mbeki era, 14:12 I was just struck by something you said there, because I was reflecting on Bafana Bafana's World Cup journey so far, and especially when we made it through to the round of 16. 14:24 And the celebrations were so intense. It was almost too much. And I thought to myself, We're a nation that is just dying for something to celebrate. You can say that again. 14:39 I mean, I was talking to my wife, Nakedi, the other day that in South Africa, you fail to qualify after the group of 16. When you come back, you have a celebration. 14:58 In Uruguay, you fail to qualify for the same thing. The government decide to take your air ticket to come back. You must fly by yourself to go back to Uruguay. They had hired a private jet to fly them back. They canceled that flight. 15:17 All the players can now travel on commercial airlines. So that's the difference. But it was a good achievement. 15:28 It was great. And Bafana did really well. But I was just struck by the fact that We have so little to celebrate and we want to be a nation. We want to be united, but we don't have... I feel a lot of unity, also in the Mandela era, even in the Mbeki era, was built around common victories. We had common victories that we could all gather around. And it feels at the moment that we are a nation that lacks anything to celebrate collectively, except soccer and rugby games from time to time. 15:58 And occasionally cricket, which you can't guess very well, but nevertheless, I think we are yearning for some unifying force that can persist. Because, you know, it comes like in... 16:15 in bits and pieces like pulses and then goes away and then we're back to square one. But I think we are a nation yearning for success, yearning for heroes. 16:29 And you can see that, I mean, through the sort of celebrations that goes around when something positive happens. 16:38 The Mbeki era, as you say, was... 16:42 some ways a double-edged sword. 16:44 You were one of the very brave voices who spoke out around the fall in life expectancy, the HIV pandemic. 16:56 On the other hand, we had economic growth, we celebrated our own victories and there were still victories to celebrate at the time. We look back now and we would love to see some of those economic numbers. 17:09 Talk us through that era of leadership in our country. 17:13 Well, I think some people may not believe this. 17:19 Mbeki was for me presidential. I mean, he just seemed to have the state craft to be the president of the country. 17:29 Yeah, sure. 17:30 And a very action-orientated person, decisive, well-read, well-informed, articulate, you know, somebody you would be proud to say, this is my president. 17:47 He ran, I think he ran government very well. 17:51 And as you say, being an economist, I think our economy grew, jobs were created, maybe not as much as we wanted, but there was certainly economic growth. 18:04 And it kept, I think, the Fiskars in a positive way and we were able to do what they call social dispensations like education and health and so forth and deliver. 18:22 Of course, like all human beings, I think President Mbeki has had a blind spot I think he had a blind spot around Zimbabwe. 18:36 And I think he had a blind spot around AIDS. 18:39 But, you know, in my assessment, he is still the president that was prematurely removed. I mean, I could understand why the organization he belongs to removed him. But I thought they could have done it better. 18:58 And they could have sat with him because I think they are an organization that believe in discussions and debates and say, look, chief, you're not following things properly. But, you know, they removed him. And after that, I think it seems like it was the end of our democracy. 19:18 I mean, you think of Mandela, you think of Mbeki, you think of the economic growth, you think of jobs, you think of the victories that we had during his time. 19:28 And after that, something just seems to, a case just seemed to befall us as a country. 19:37 That's so true. I mean, it just seems like it was the end of our democracy. 19:43 And I don't think we have recovered from that. 19:48 And President Berkey is still a force to be reckoned with. 19:56 I mean, he is as sharp as he used to be. 20:01 And he's very insightful. 20:03 I mean, you know, when you listen to him talk, you see that this man grew up in politics. 20:10 It's not like something that is made up. It is something that is in him. 20:18 And with the level of capability that he has, he still stands, I think, shoulders above everybody else as a political leader. And as I say, I think his strength is that he is an implementer. 20:36 He wants to shape society. And in the years that he has been there, lots of things were shaped. I mean, in my short life, I likened Becky with Mrs. Thatcher. 20:53 She was a very tough woman. 20:56 She irritated many people. 20:58 But you know, when you look at British society today, it's still shaped by the ideas of Mrs. Thatcher. Sure. Everyone, whether the Labour Party or the Conservative, they still yearn for the era of having a decisive, action-orientated, delivering policy. prime minister, or in the case of Meghi, a delivering president. He really understood the role of being a president of a developing country, trying to integrate into Africa and still playing a role, I think, in the global sphere. 21:37 But I think, as I say, his blind spot was Zimbabwe in eighth. Yeah. 21:44 And it must have been difficult back then to raise your voice against such a towering president. 21:52 and criticize power. 21:56 You know, even today it can be difficult to criticize power, but back then the ANC bestrode the political landscape. President Beki was almost in some ways above reproach, and yet there were moments and there were people like yourself who spoke out against the handling of the epidemic. 22:13 Yeah, I mean, I think there's one thing that people maybe don't realize about President Beki. 22:20 I think he grew up in a family, in an intellectual family I think his father was a real giant intellect. 22:29 So he's not afraid to debate because he loves that and he reads and he prepares himself. And he's not afraid to be criticized. 22:41 I think because he listens and he may not agree with you, but you may not agree with him. But he won't sort of like become nasty to you. I mean, I... I recognize that. That's good. Because I come from a similar background where differences of ideas don't go emotional. 23:02 You know, once you differ with somebody and then you start to hate them or to dislike them, it stops to become a debate. 23:10 And this is exactly what happens at birth where people became very emotional. instead of being intellectual and rational. So when I was interacting with Mbeke before all this, I just realized that if I said to him, I don't agree with you, and this is what I think, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable. 23:34 Lots of people, I think, coming from the era of apartheid where we used to have bosses or bosses, who would say something and you have to do it. They didn't realize that, I think Becky was different from that. He was the president, but he was not a dictator or an autocrat. He was a president who wanted to listen and have his ideas shaped. I think that's why I felt comfortable that if I said, I didn't believe you, Mr. President. 24:07 He wouldn't suddenly say, I don't want to speak to Makoba or something like that. Because when we meet, we can still smile. And I don't hold any prejudice that he differed with me. I know that there is the politics of it that I'm not part of because I'm not a politician. But I think I still respect him. And... 24:33 Sometimes I yearn for his leadership, but that's not something I can decide on. 24:45 You said you came from a similar kind of background to Mbeki in terms of intellectual debate. You're obviously part of a generation of academics and academic leaders who broke new ground in South Africa. 24:59 How did you become interested in the academic life, in medicine, and how did you break through those barriers that would have been in place during the apartheid years to actually become a leading academic and intellectual? 25:14 well i think i've captured it a bit in my book i didn't decide to become a doctor my grandfather decided when i was three days old that i should become i will become a doctor and as i grew up in my village everybody just said this child must go to medical school and you know when i was i think i must have been 12 years old I was doing the old in the old nomenclature I was doing standard four and my school principal said I want this boy to go and write standard six which is two classes ahead and my father my father said no I think that's a little bit it's a jump too high anyway be that is the way the school principal had taught my mother and my mother in 1946, I think, had been the top student in the district in Standard 6. 26:11 And so the school principal always compared me with my mother and wanted to know whether I'm better than my mother or not. I said, I can't judge that. But from there, I finished my primary school and then I went to Huiti High School. When I arrived in Huiti High School, Within three months of there, a certain teacher called Winifred Khware, who became the first president of the Black People's Convention, the person who actually trained Peter Mugabe as a youth leader, because Peter Mugabe was at Huiti, became the first SRC president at Huiti. 26:53 And in that class, there was Olive Shisana, who became the director general, And then there was a lawyer called Lehuai Bije who got killed, was in my class. 27:05 And so it was a very interesting school. So within three months, Mrs. Juarez said, she came to me and said, I think we're wasting your time in this class. You must move to the next class. Would you like to do that? 27:20 So I said to her, no, I can't do it because I will stick like a sore thumb and I may not be friendly with my friends anymore, my peers, they will feel I'm different. So why don't you guys set up a process that would be just, you know, just and fair, that everybody can compete for whatever you guys want to do. Of course, that time the inspectorate was in Petersburg, it was run by Afrikaners. 27:48 But the school decided they want to set up a process for promoting students in the class of the first year in secondary school. So within six months, we were promoted. There were six of us. 28:04 And we kept on that way until matric. And then when we were at matric, the University of Natal as the only medical school that was available, often took about the top 20 students in the country in metric into the first year of medicine, not the preliminary year. So four of us from my high school Today is Dr. Mailani, Dr. Mudiba, Professor Mudiba, Professor Neluheni, and myself. 28:38 We were taken into first year. Wow. That was in 1971. 28:44 That must have been such intense competition to get those places. 28:49 Yeah, only 20. And of course, it included Indians. It included Kalats. Hmm. Because we were writing not the same senior certificate or matric at the time. So we went there. One of them is actually the current health ombud, Tawlemukwena. We were in that group of people. 29:09 Amazing. 29:10 Yeah. So we arrived in first year. And then we went through first year. Second year, third year. And when we were in first year, Steve Biko was there. Wow. They were just establishing SASO. 29:25 Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any interactions with him? 29:30 He interacted with him because he was the SRC president, the SASO president. And he was very highly political. And he had a high profile. All of us wanted to... you know, to speak to him. He shaped our thinking quite a lot because, you know, he was the driver behind black consciousness. And we were all thinking that it is our era to change the world as youngsters. 30:01 And so we were all members of SASO. 30:04 But Steve, Banepijana, Mampela Rampela. Mampela was at medical school. He was maybe a couple of classes ahead of us. 30:14 And so was Steve, maybe two classes ahead. So they shaped the political era of black consciousness. 30:22 And I think SASO was established in 1968. And we just arrived there in 1971 when it was just three years old. And it was just beginning to mushroom into the... into the rest of the country. So anyway, we went through medical school and in 1976 we qualified and something strange happened there. 30:49 I was the student who got a certificate of merit in medicine. It had never happened to any African student at the time. 31:00 My three other friends also won prizes. 31:04 One of my best friends, who's late now, Charles Mudiba, won the best prize for the best student, high marks in surgery. He became one of the best surgeons in the country when he specialized. And then there was Dr. Nen Nguyen, who won the prize in orthopedic surgery. And then there was Dr. Peter Mailani. So we all, in 76, finished. And it was the first time, I think, that Africans actually... 31:33 had won so many awards in a class and so it was it was spoken about and and so forth and we we all decided that we're not going to go into general practice we're going to specialize so immediately after that my the professor of medicine professor adams said to me i shouldn't go into private practice He said to me, don't buy a big car because you won't afford it, you are an intern. 32:06 And remember at that time, an intern was earning 220 rands a month. That was in 1977. But people were still buying big cars, doctors, young doctors. 32:18 So we qualified and decided we were going to specialize. So a year after I got back from my internship, Professor Adams, Besides, she's retiring. 32:34 And I remember I got angry. 32:36 I said to myself, this man asked me to come back to specialize in medicine. Now he's going away. 32:44 Who's going to look after me? 32:46 So I went to his office and said, You asked me to come back here. Now you're going away. What should I do? 32:57 Who's going to look after me? 32:59 He says, no, you don't have to worry. 33:01 I will arrange for you to get a scholarship to go to Oxford. 33:06 And I'll work hard that you do that so that you can see the world but also experience a different type of medicine. 33:14 Wow. Yeah. 33:17 By the end of 1978, I was just in my first year of postgraduate training. 33:24 And middle of 79, around May, I received a letter that I got the scholarship to go to Oxford. 33:32 So to go and do a PhD or something like that. 33:37 So I decided to pick my back against my mother's will because she just felt I had been away from home in Limpopo. I was in Natal. Now I'm going overseas. 33:50 Will she ever see me? And so forth. But anyway, my dad... 33:54 come to my mother down and say, you don't have to worry. I mean, this chap knows what he's doing. Anyway, I left for Oxford. 34:01 I went there and I spent four good years there. I did my defil under Professor McMichael. 34:11 What was your time there like? Because I'm sure, I mean, it was a culture shock for me in 2013, but I'm sure back then it must have been just... 34:20 I was like a curio. Really? I mean, people actually, we used to ask, how did you get out of South Africa? Because the only South Africans they knew that got out, they were in exile. 34:32 Right. 34:32 You know, they were part of the movement. So they asked me, how did you get out? you know and so forth but it was a very enriching environment of continuous debate yeah yeah and remember one time debating with my colleagues why there is war why there are wars in the world when i said to myself Why should I be in this kind of arguments? But that's what you were able to do there. You find yourself in these interesting discussions. 35:03 Yeah, it was. And then there was the Africa Society at Oxford that I used to go to. And at the time, the president of the Africa Society was Abina Busia, the daughter of the former Ghanaian president, Busia. I think after Kwame Nkuruma, it was Busia or something like that. She was the president. And because Robert Mugabe, when he was still regarded as a gorilla person, went to stay at her home. 35:37 And at the time when we were there, it was during the Lancaster Debates. So Abina invited Robert to come and spend a weekend with us. 35:48 tell you, that was one of the most impactful weekend to spend with an African politician. He was taking a break from the Lancaster debates and to come and just spend with African students at Oxford. 36:04 What were your impressions of him back then? 36:08 They've never changed. That man, he was a live wire. He was bright. You know, almost the same as Mbeki. He knew He knew what he wanted to achieve. 36:22 And he was not going to be shaken. 36:25 He was very determined, very decisive. 36:28 And I think it showed when he took over Zimbabwe at the beginning, that this was a man who had direction, he had clarity or vision, determination. 36:40 and had all the support and did what you needed to do in education, in health, in all sorts of things until maybe, you know, like everybody else, I suppose, as they say, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think towards the end of his career, he was not the same person, but during his heydays, Mugabe was untouchable politically. 37:07 Were there any other South Africans there that you interacted with, maybe people doing Rhodes Scholarships and that kind of thing? 37:14 Yeah, there were a few South Africans there. The Rhodes Scholars that were there was Nonga. 37:23 Oh, he was there at the same time? 37:25 Yeah, he was there actually maybe two years ahead of me, Luiso. 37:29 He would become the Vice-Chancellor. 37:30 Yeah, he was there at the time. He was in maths. 37:34 Yeah, I think he was the first black road scholar. 37:37 Yeah, he was that. And the same thing. So we used to interact with each other. 37:42 Oh, lovely. Was Edwin Cameron there? 37:46 No, no. Edwin came after, I think he came after me, yeah. 37:51 Okay. So there were a few of them were whites as I said the only person that I knew very well was Louiso because we used to interact and we didn't know that one day we'll both become vice chancellors. Exactly. But that's the nature of this sort of thing. So anyway I started on my PhD program there and Professor Professor Andrew McMichael, he also has a very interesting history. His father, Sir John McMichael, was the first medical specialist who actually catheterized the heart in the history of medicine. 38:33 That's that kind of family where he came from. He was orientated towards research rather than clinical practice. Anyway, I was given a project to do something to analyze, I think, the structures of the genes of the immune system, called HLA at the time, the major histocompatibility complex. 38:59 This is now going above my pay grade. Yeah, it will. 39:04 And it's something that I think South Africans actually never... 39:08 realized that I am a scientist and I'm passionate about it. 39:15 And we were amongst the first people at the time to actually identify a gene for immune responses. 39:27 As my supervisor wrote, I think in some way that Unfortunately, I could not identify the whole gene. It was part of the gene, but nevertheless, it was the gene, and we were amongst the first. So when you hear about this thing called molecular genetics, molecular endocrinology, and so forth, or molecular immunology, whatever, we were the people, we were the sort of the trendsetters for that discipline or for that development. 40:08 These stories are so important, Prof, because it speaks of the tradition of black academia in our country, which actually stretches back further than we realize. And I think all those who followed in your footsteps, Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, you know, we don't actually know these stories of how you managed to navigate those places back in the 70s. 40:30 As I say, yeah, I mean, and Professor McMichael was a very good supervisor. He also understood, I think, maybe the you know, the dynamics of somebody coming from a developing country. I remember when I first arrived at Oxford, they wanted me to do a clinical project. I must go and see patients and said, because... 40:53 I come from South Africa. 40:55 All I know is about patients. 40:58 I said to them, no, I didn't come here. If I needed to see patients, I should stay in South Africa. There are more patients. There's more variety there. I want to do something different. Something that when I go back home, It will be different and it will advance knowledge. So I said, I'm going to go into the basic sciences. 41:18 And so Andrew exposed me to a lot of science and scientific teachers. 41:27 Then what happened was that when I joined his laboratory in 1980, because I arrived there around 6th of October, 1979, 1980, I needed to write the membership exam so that I can still be recognized as a clinician. 41:47 But I was most of the time in the lab and I didn't say anything to anybody that I wanted to do this. I registered privately, just quietly. Nobody knew. 41:58 So somewhere in February, I was supposed to go and write the exam. So I just, I went to him and said, Andrew, I think I've got an exam coming. 42:09 I must go and write in London. He said, what exam? I said, the membership exam. He said, but you've not been starting for the exam. How do you think you're going to make it? Only about less than 20% of the people pass this exam. 42:25 I said, if I don't pass, I don't think anybody will pass. 42:29 So I went to write. I passed my... And it was a shock at Oxford. Because then, you know, these academics, they talk to each other. 42:40 Then he said, now that you've passed the first part, when are you going to do the second part? I said, next time when it's done in May, I'm doing the second part. 42:50 He says, but you don't go to the wards. You are in the lab most of the time. I said, just don't worry about it. I've seen too many patients in my life. I should be able to make it. 43:00 Anyway, I went for my second part in May and I passed it. 43:06 What happened was, some fortuitous. I then met a South African during the exam in my second part. And this was Sir Raymond Hoffenbeck, who became the president of the Royal College of Physicians of London. 43:23 And he was in the group that did the first heart transplant with Chris Barnard. A very brilliant physician. 43:33 And during my exam, After I finished my oral exam and my practical exam, he asked me, where exactly did you come from? I said, I'm from South Africa. 43:45 He just smiled at me. 43:49 and left. When I was back home, he took my number, obviously. He called me just before the results were announced and told me that, I'm very proud of you. 44:01 You did extremely well. 44:05 And I'm sure by tomorrow when the results come, you'll see. So I got my exam and then I went to tell my boss. He said, no. 44:15 There's something about you that we don't know. There's something wrong here. We can't work you out. We don't know what you are doing exactly now. 44:24 Have you ever failed an exam, Prof? Because I'm thinking from school, then you were in primary school, you were moved up. High school, you were moved up. 44:32 Oxford, you were. So I finished. I said, now I can focus on my research. And as I say, we did what we did. And I got my DPhil. And then during the period of my DPhil, he then said, there's somebody called Professor Katowski at the Hammersmith Hospital, which is the hospital, the Royal Postgraduate Medical School in the Commonwealth, where this was the first director of the school was his father. 45:06 Right, right. The McMichael. So he said, there's a hematologist called Katowski who's studying something new that's coming up. 45:16 I think you should go and see him because when you finish here, you need to go and do a postdoc somewhere. 45:22 So I went to see Danny Katowski and he was then studying this phenomenon that became AIDS. 45:31 Hmm. 45:32 Now this was not, it was just beginning to be like smelled around the medical fraternity. So Katowski said to me, I think you should come and work for me. 45:47 There is this lymphoproliferative disorder that I'm seeing here and I'm working with Robert Gallo at NIH and so forth. 45:59 and maybe when you are done, finish with your PhD and been examined, you should think of coming to do a postdoc here. But that was the first time I got exposed to HIV, when it was not even well known as a phenomenon, but I was reading about it already. 46:19 So I finished my PhD, And then just after I finished my PhD, Sir Raymond Hoffenberg had just become the president of the Coral College. And he said, well, come and join my department and finish your clinical training so that you can become a consultant. Because otherwise it will become, you become difficult to become a consultant without clinical practice. Sure. So I went to join his unit. I was his first assistant. 46:47 Hmm. 46:49 in that unit. And you can imagine if you're working for the president of the Royal College of Vision of London, it's a hotly contested position because you're going to be exposed to almost all the big boys of medicine in the UK. They will have to see you when they come to visit the president and you're also exposed to special patients and so forth. 47:17 the ladies and the sairs and the knights and so forth of the UK when they come to see him. 47:24 So within that two years, I was very, very busy, hectic clinically. 47:32 And then Professor IKC, that was the professor of medicine now had taken over from Adams, said, I think you better come home and come and just... 47:42 see what the lay of the land is in case you want to come back. So I came back to Natal for about six months. But at that time when I came back, I was already contracted to go to the US, to the NIH, to work for one of the most senior people in immunology. 48:07 So I came for six months. And in April, 1988, I came back in 85, and then in 86, March, I left. 48:17 And I left for the US. 48:20 I joined a new lab. 48:23 I thought I was going to do something in relation to immune responses directly, the genes that I'd been working on. When I arrived there, I found that they changed the project. They were working on how cells speak to each other, communicate with each other, and what are the structures. And I said to myself, maybe I should go back home, because this is not what I came for. But on reflection, I said, no, it may be a new opportunity. 48:51 So I joined this group. 48:54 I didn't realize this was going to be the biggest thing in immunology. 49:00 So I started working on this... 49:03 cell adhesion structures that are on lymphocytes and how those structures direct differentiation of lymphocytes, how they talk to each other, and how they generate responses in a very general manner. 49:24 And it impacted on diseases like AIDS, it impacted on cardiovascular diseases, it impacted on diseases like Alzheimer, a whole range of things because of this adhesion structure. So I worked on one of them. 49:42 called ICAM. 49:44 I not only found its function, but I also found its general function and that it also circulate and you can measure it and you can follow tumors and you can follow inflammation generally. 50:04 So that became a big thing. 50:07 And it was so big at the time I got invited to something called the Nobel Symposium to go and speak on these kinds of issues. 50:19 So, you know, your life is going up. And of course, then the politics of South Africa coming up here. So one had to make a choice. 50:29 But that work, you know, I keep saying to some people, it was for me like, when Michael Jackson had his highest level of creativity. Scientifically, for me, that was my best creativity. 50:46 You felt like you were at the pinnacle. 50:48 I mean, it was at the pinnacle. Everybody wanted to know about this. Even up to this day, the first paper got published in 1988, it's still being cited up to this day. 51:06 And it's always nice, you know, once a month I go through the citations and I see them and I ask myself, this has stood the test of time because we were able for the first time in the history of immunology to show that two biological molecules can operate like a lock and key. 51:30 That was done by us. 51:32 Of course, The work was so important that it was nominated for various other medical awards and so forth. 51:44 So when I was called to come back, I didn't feel unfulfilled as a scientist. I told myself there's a different challenge when I'm coming back to South Africa. 51:59 It was a challenge of change and the challenge of... 52:03 doing that change really being comfortable knowing that I can hold myself against anybody. 52:13 So that was really the history of my scientific career and I'm still very proud of it because people are still citing my work and they're still wondering why I'm not directly in science. And of course, When I came to South Africa, people forgot that I was a scientist. They thought I was a politician and a half-baked politician. I didn't mind that, but there was a different project for me when I came back. 52:44 Quite incredible and important. 52:46 Very enjoyable, and as I say, I'm very proud of it. 52:52 I look back and I said, people are still using this work that I did. No, it's a very important... More than 30 years ago. 53:00 Yeah. 53:02 Thanks for sharing that history because it's really important as we document the history of the South African Academy. Yeah. And it must have been... You know, I think about when you came home, obviously you then rise through the ranks of academic leadership and you become the first deputy vice chancellor. 53:21 And then we have the so-called Mahoba affair. Yeah. 53:25 But against the backdrop of this, like you've effectively in some ways sacrificed an international scientific life. You've come back to make a contribution to South Africa. 53:36 And then racism and all kinds of false accusations get thrown against you and you end up in kind of a political firestorm. Yeah. 53:47 when really what I would have thought all that needed to happen was that the country was just very glad to have someone like you, first black deputy vice chancellor at an institution like Wits, and yet you face all these allegations and recriminations. How do you reflect on that? 54:07 That has become kind of a law and a myth in academia, the Mahoba affair, the first time that a black... 54:16 leader of an institution was really attacked pretty much. 54:19 Yeah. Well, I, you know, I felt sorry for the people who actually got involved in this. I really felt sorry because none of them could have been what I was when I came back. I mean, scholarly, scholarly otherwise and academically. And you know, during the time when this happened, I called one of them, one of the leaders of those people. 54:52 I said to them, you know, this is not, we shouldn't reduce this fight or this battle emotionally. This is an intellectual exercise of a country trying to change. 55:08 Let's just calm down. 55:10 and sit down and understand what it is that some of us are advocating. Nobody is advocating the disappearance of white academics or whatever it is. We want a country that understands and defines its role in education. And the identity of that education needed to be anchored most probably in the majority of the people that have been excluded all the time. Their voices and their experiences, whether you take them as barbarism or whatever it is, you need to hear them and distill them in the field of knowledge. 55:51 You know, there is always this so-called IKS, indigenous knowledge system. You can't keep on ignoring it. 55:58 Just like when I went to UK ZN, I told the people at UK ZN, 80% of the people you live with here speak Zulu. But you guys don't want to speak Zulu. 56:09 They can crack jokes and laugh. You don't know what they're laughing at. 56:14 Yet you can study all kinds of science. And then you want to study them and you're always trying to study. They've become for you guinea pigs rather than your colleagues. Is that really... Don't you understand that that really is a form of... I don't know how, it's dehumanizing to realize that. Fortunately, as I say, at UKZN, I think they realized that this is not gonna go on and they introduced Zulu for almost everybody in the first year or something. But it was the same thing at WETS. 56:46 Nobody was trying to say, you know, we don't want white people there, they are finished or their role is over. But they misunderstood it because they saw it as a, I suppose, as a change that would drive them out. 57:04 In fact, I remember one time, making a joke because I was sort of a little bit angry. And I said to them, you know, if we had to make the criteria for university and one of the criteria was dancing, who do you think would be the most students here in this university? It would be African students. It won't be white because they don't know how to dance. So, you know, I mean, it was just those little things just to make people realize, you know, the world is much more diverse and much more important and nice. 57:38 when you embrace everybody's talent in a university, no matter where it comes from. So it was very sad, as I say. I mean... 57:48 Those people since that event have never been anywhere. 57:52 They've disappeared. Off the face of an academic health. 57:55 I mean, I don't know, I wouldn't know, but they've disappeared. And I'm asking myself, really, they can't be that bad. They needed to, I think, to look at themselves and ask themselves, what is it that they were trying to do? Because I know so many people from overseas who actually phoned the university at the time to tell them, I think you are making a mistake. 58:15 Mm-hmm. 58:16 I mean, they were told, I mean, Charlton was told that, you know, he's making a mistake and he, you know, he, Charlton at the time was very much afraid, this group of 13, that they will pass a vote of no confidence in him as vice chancellor. 58:33 And that was, that's why he was in a bind. 58:37 Right, right. 58:37 You know, he couldn't, he couldn't see himself not be vice chancellor because they would have passed the vote of no confidence and it would have been done because I would have been the cause of it. 58:50 And how could he identify with me and not them because I think they come a long way historically at the university. 59:00 So it was not easy for him. 59:04 But that's it, yeah. 59:06 And how do you reflect on it now, having been a vice chancellor, served in various high offices in the country? You know, I suppose you didn't let the fact that the university didn't come to your defense define you? 59:24 Because I told myself, these people are parochial. They've lived at vets. They've never gone anywhere. I mean, you know, The same thing that they sometimes criticize people for. They've never done anything. They're just relatives of each other running a university. And really, they don't see how the world out there is moving. 59:51 So it was like they were small-minded. And I said, I have nothing to do with that. I don't have time for it. There are bigger things for me to do, and there are more important challenges that I can face, that I can contribute to. I shouldn't let that be. And then, you know, I went to the MRC. 60:13 I enjoyed my time at the MRC, and I went to UKZN. I had a very successful period there for 10 or 12 years, I think, when I was there. And, yeah, so I... 60:26 I left it as such and said, well, they will chew in their own soup or whatever. It is that they've mixed. 60:35 I wanted to ask you about two different times when you've contributed to public life. 60:40 One is the life Esi Dimeni tragedy, where you as the health on board, I believe, really in some ways blew the whistle on this tragedy of vulnerable people being shifted to a facility, which ultimately led to all kinds of pain and suffering. What was that process like when in some ways you were unearthing a tragedy of that scale? 61:09 Yeah, that, you know, as a doctor, you are trained to often distance your emotions from what you're doing. 61:22 I mean, when, you know, when Jack Bloom brought this matter to the Houting legislature, I think there were about 36 people who were reported to have died in that legislature. But when I started the investigation, it was almost double that number that had died, but they'd been hiding it. So I'm gonna ask myself, what kind of people are these where you have mentally ill patients that cannot make decisions for themselves? 61:58 You go and make decisions for them that are to their disadvantage. 62:07 And I remember in my report looking at it and saying, what is the purpose of a health system? 62:19 And I came to one little answer that the purpose of the health system is to prolong life. 62:27 That's why people are living longer than they ever lived. That is its really biggest achievement with human development over centuries. We are here to preserve and protect life. 62:39 Now in life as a domain, it was the opposite. 62:42 where the decision makers decided to shorten life. 62:48 And they were shortening life of people who cannot make decisions for themselves. 62:54 I mean, that was very cruel. But the people who were at the top or the leaders did not seem to see that. 63:07 The Section 27 advice... 63:13 the group of psychiatrists that tried to advise them, the parents who were looking after these people who were related could not be listened to. And you ask yourself then, what kind of government do we have that doesn't listen to its constituency? 63:31 And really, that was the sad part that one was thinking about. And you know, it was so funny that when you were doing that investigation, some people had two death or three death dates. I mean, how can he die three times? I mean, that's how poor the record keeping was. You know, you had to go and evaluate where this person died and what time, get timeframes so that you could arrive at the right thing. But this had happened in a system of health where records are kept. 64:07 That's the first. The second thing was, you know, You, in medicine, people talk about cause of death. 64:20 And the cause of death is a subject that I'm still debating in my own mind that, you know, if I'm diabetic, I can die with my diabetes, but it doesn't mean I died from diabetes. And unfortunately, the health profession has not gotten up to that. But you can die with high blood pressure, but you didn't die of high blood pressure. 64:48 And when you look at the death certificates, you find this kind of missing, the precision of causes of death were very difficult to reconcile. 65:03 You know, somebody goes and dies of asphyxiation And then because they are diabetic, you come and write the cause of death is diabetes. I mean, diabetes doesn't get you to succeed yourself, but these were the things that you picked up. And then you had this whole thing about records that you can't read. 65:26 Now, the law or the constitution values medical records. Now, if you can write records that cannot be read, and sometimes even the person who wrote them can't read them. 65:41 You ask yourself, what are these records meant for? Because the courts use them and rely on them heavily. And you ask yourself, why is the medical profession or the health profession change these sort of things? Today you can dictate things, you can use all kinds of gadgets such that your records are clean, And anybody can go to them and confidently say, this is what Cesar said. This is what Machoba said. 66:14 And it's unambiguous. Now they're to be looking at taking spectacles and microscopes to look whether the handwriting is correct. These are things that you picked up. But at the end of the day, it was a very tragic and traumatic experience. And I think it was very sad because the constitution of our country is based on human rights. 66:35 Now, this was the worst form of human rights abuse that I have seen. And I don't think anybody has recorded anything different or worse than this in South Africa since our democracy. 66:48 Do you feel enough accountability has flowed from that? 66:54 Well, I mean, remember that the people who were involved in this tried to duck and dive. But I'm told that now that... 67:03 that it's a new NDPP, ND Mutibi, they have decided that they are going to prosecute two people. 67:12 But you know, we will see. But at least what happened was that even the day before I released my report, I think the MEC resigned. 67:22 which was something that had not happened in south africa yeah that somebody a politician resigned but obviously some people in some organization didn't like that but that's life you know but but there has been some accountability because some people quite a few of them have been disciplined and you know i'm not sure that The disciplinary outcomes, I think, merit what they did. 67:53 But that's not my role. I think I have to accept that it's another process that needs to judge them. But I think Justice Musenegger did an excellent report when he did the arbitration processes. And Justice Stefu also in the inquest, I think she did an excellent job. So I think, yeah, something has been done. 68:22 When I talk to the relatives of the patients, I think they will not be satisfied, but that's because they've lost people, they've lost relatives. 68:35 Last theme, Prof. Yeah. Because I'm realizing we could, I think we need to have five different. 68:41 No, it's fine. 68:41 Because we've barely scratched the surface of your work. But ESCOM. 68:47 Yeah. 68:48 You were the interim chair, then the chairperson of ESCOM at probably one of the most difficult times for that institution. 68:55 Yeah. 68:57 It was during, if memory serves me correctly, the Durata period, and the country really went through a ghastly period of load shedding and blackouts. 69:11 What are your memories of being at the center of a state institution at that time? 69:19 And how do you look back on that period of ESCOM? And how do you reflect now that South Africa in many ways has come out of that period? 69:26 What do you think the causes of that crisis were? 69:30 And how do you reflect on it? 69:34 First of all, let me put a few statements. I was recruited into ESCOM in 2018 when the chairperson of the board of ESCOM was Jabu Mabusa. 69:55 And I was brought in there because of my record as somebody who had managed an institution, had managed transformation and understood corporate governance a little bit. So my focus really was the ethics and the governance of, I actually chaired that subcommittee in ESCOM. 70:18 Then I think Jabu Mabuza, I think around 2020, I think, He blundered and resigned and then got COVID and passed away. And then I was called... 70:37 by the then minister to become an interim chair until they find someone suitable. Was that Minister Godan? Yeah, it was Godan. 70:46 It was Praveen. 70:48 And I understood that because, as I say, it was a role that I think Jabu played very well as chair. And he enjoyed, I think, the support and the ear. 71:04 of the movement. Because that seems to be, and as you know, my track record is I belong to no political party. So if my name goes to the deployment committee, I'll never be deployed. 71:21 So it's just as simple as that. But anyway, be that as it may. So they asked me to hold on until they could find someone else that is suitable to them. And this process went for 18 months, despite the fact that I kept on asking, look, you know that I'm not the person really that you want to keep, and I actually don't. 71:46 This is not my area of expertise. I mean, I understand the systems part of it. 71:53 And I also understand the scientific part of it or technological part of it. But, you know, this is not something that I've spent my life in it. And I think you do need someone like that. You know, and I kept on discussing with Praveen. And Praveen one time said to me, I've done all I can do, but they have not come back to me. 72:17 And it turns out that I think there was a difference between both of them are late, I suppose, Praveen and Mabuza, the deputy president? Right, David Mabuza. David, yeah. Okay, interesting. Remember, David was the chair of the deployment committee. 72:37 and the Minister of Public Enterprise. So there seems to have been a difference between the two of them as to how they should actually... There were two things that they needed to do, is to beef up the board and is to find the proper chair of ESCOM. Right, and they were fighting, so they couldn't... Yeah, it was stuck between those kind of two elephants, if I may call them. 73:02 This is so fascinating. 73:03 So it didn't okay. But the other thing that was really a problem, was that Traveen was a meddlesome minister. 73:16 He interfered quite a lot. Really? Yeah, he interfered. You know, I mean, I remember one time I was in Botswana on a holiday. 73:27 I get called, I'm on a holiday. He knows I'm on a holiday. I get called that there is something in Soweto that is not far from where the president's sister lives or something like that. 73:39 Okay. 73:40 And there's no electricity there. And I must come back. 73:45 Sure. 73:46 I must make sure that there's electricity. For that. I mean, in that area, whatever it is. 73:53 So there was load shedding there. That was getting worse. 73:56 And I'm saying to myself, I'm on holiday. 74:00 I mean, you know, so... 74:04 And sometimes he would come to ESCOM, not see the raider, not see me, but has his own cronies or spies, if I may use the word, that would tell him what's going on at ESCOM. 74:18 So the whole political meddling was at its height. 74:26 Wow. 74:27 And it was directed from the office of the minister. 74:35 Did you feel disempowered? Because then you've got a minister who's speaking, who's going beyond you. You're trying to be the chair. 74:42 I was trying to be the chair, but I had told myself I had never promised them that I want to be the chair. 74:48 In fact, you didn't even want to carry on. 74:49 No, no, no. I wanted them to find somebody to deal with the matter. 74:53 But also it was pretty obvious that it was more of an ideological issue rather than people trying to understand that this was just a technological issue that required people with good technological skills to sort it out. 75:13 So, you know, when you had people like Chris Yellen that are outside and you spoke to other people that are in charge of similar project as to how they didn't see that it was a problem. But the one thing that they kept on saying is that, can you remove the politicians from this? 75:31 Remember that, as somebody said, The government had been trying to manage OSCOM for 15 years before our time. They'd never solved it. Because for them, for some of them, it was an ideological issue. 75:49 And you know who was the first minister of electricity in the country? 75:53 It was Cyril, appointed by Zuma. 75:57 Remember that he was supposed to solve the electricity problem during Zuma's time. 76:03 And he created a war room. 76:06 And the whole thing got worse. 76:10 So you had all these dynamics that were playing around during our time. 76:17 Of course, the board had been depleted. 76:23 So we were saying, can you find people? No, they couldn't find people. But I also remember, you know, there were two incidences I'll just share. 76:35 You know, the late Fiso Tabengwa? 76:39 Yes, yes. 76:41 A very good engineer. 76:44 And he had a fight with data. And accused the rector of something. And we had to appoint a commission chaired by Wim Tengrove to examine this whole debate between the two of them. And the rector and them, well, I've been going to the rector to be fired. 77:10 And the rector said, if I'm not fired, you must go away. 77:15 It's not going to be resolved by mediation as the president often likes to do, you know, you mediate and talk to each other. So the report comes out and it must be that Davengo must leave. 77:31 And what happens? 77:33 I get a call from a senior government official that this man is the president's funder. 77:44 so i mustn't touch him and i said no that's not how it operates yeah you asked us to to establish an inquiry the findings are there it's going to be public he must go when he resigns he doesn't send me the letter he sends it to praveen I'm the chair of the board. I don't get to know, I hear from the minister. Anyway, that's one. 78:14 That's quite incredible because it speaks to the intense political... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I had no idea there was this amount of political pressure. 78:26 No, it was very sad. 78:28 And I used to say to Nake that, you know, whenever there's load shedding, my ears start to eat because everybody's swearing at me. I can imagine. But anyway. 78:39 And in some ways making you the fall guy. 78:42 Yeah, I'm the fall guy for something that where you're trying to, you're holding many things. But the other one was, there was a chief procurement officer at ESCOM called Chichitangano. 78:59 He had to undergo a disciplinary inquiry. 79:04 And as soon as he was charged, the minister reminded us or reminded me that, remember that this man is vendor. 79:18 He comes from where the president come from. 79:23 So I said, so what? 79:27 I mean, the president is not involved in it, but I'm being told that I must be careful and we mustn't dismiss him if he's found guilty. 79:38 And I said, no, that's not how governance goes. 79:43 And he got dismissed. 79:45 So there were these sort of things that made you feel that sometimes you were protecting people who did things that they knew were wrong, but they wanted you to use power that is not justifiable legally, morally and otherwise to protect people. 80:08 I mean, I wasn't going to be involved in the disciplinary inquiry. I didn't charge him, but he had to be charged by the normal procedures of ESCOM. But I was reminded, the first thing I was reminded was I must be very careful because he comes from the same tribe as the president. 80:27 Sure, this is interesting. 80:31 That's the story of political interference. 80:34 Yeah, absolutely. 80:36 But it happens across the country in different forms and in different versions. Sometimes you go to a funeral service and you are called by the side to discuss something that has got to do with legality. 80:54 And as people often say, in South Africa, when you've done something wrong, you find a political solution. 81:02 And that political solution depends on which side you're on. 81:07 It's got nothing to do with the real politics of what happens. So that's really, I mean, it was an interesting experience because when I was vice chancellor, I was always requested to serve on boards and I refused because I told people, I'm an academic, I'm quite comfortable here. 81:28 And I'm happy. I don't want to be in boards. And when I went to ESCOM, it was simply because I was just trying to translate or transfer my skills from the university there. I did not want to be in the boards of these public entities, but I was requested to do so. And then, unfortunately, I got lumped to become the interim chair, but then I got exposed to things that I did not realize. I'm not sure how Jabu would have solved these issues if he was there, but certainly, you know, he seems to be in those sectors in which I did not participate. 82:09 How did your eventual departure from the chairperson of ESCOM happen? 82:13 And I suppose... No, no, I mean, they ultimately... Remember that that's how they appointed this... No. After I... After... What happened is they appointed the new board in which they appointed Makwana. 82:28 Right. Yes. Yeah, yeah. What's his first name? Mpo Makwana. 82:31 Mpo Makwana, yeah. No, Mpo Makwana... 82:34 Mpumagwana and I come from more or less the same village. His dad was the driver of our ambulance at the hospital. So we know each other. 82:42 So we shared a lot. 82:46 We have respect for each other. 82:48 And he experienced the same thing. 82:50 Because he left quite soon after. 82:52 Well, he left because of interference. I mean, you know, he left and then they appointed the 83:02 Is it Mtheto? 83:04 Yes. The current chair? 83:05 Mtheto Nyatia. 83:06 Yeah, Mtheto Nyatia. And, you know, I mean, look, let's be very frank. 83:12 They have done an excellent job. 83:13 Yeah, absolutely. 83:14 And also, it says something. You see, they have a minister of electricity who understands electricity. Sure. 83:23 They have Mtheto who also understands, I think he's an engineer or something like that. 83:29 And that is what was needed all the time. Sure. Expertise that was relevant. 83:36 Unfortunately, Praveen cannot claim to be an engineer. He's a pharmacist. 83:40 far away from engineering. 83:45 And of course he knows lots about money because he was the Minister of Finance at one time. And so that's how these things happen. You disrespect expertise, then you politically meddle in an environment that is technological and you expect to sort out the problem. 84:10 It doesn't work that way. 84:12 I mean, it just doesn't work. And I think that's why it didn't work. But this current board has done tremendously well. But also I think they have not, there was no one to meddle, I think, because I think Ramohopa and them, they understand, they talk the same language. 84:38 You don't talk pills and another one talks electrons. You know, it just doesn't, it never works. I mean, usually you talk aspirin and another one tells you, you know, you require these megawatts. It doesn't make sense. But anyway, be that as it may, I think I want to compliment them. I think they've done a tremendous job. They also had something that was an advantage or that they were given. When we were in the board, when we wanted to incentivize people who are doing well, it was a no, no, no. 85:15 And I think when this new board came, that was lifted up and they could incentivize people. 85:23 But I think generally is because they talk the language that engineers understand, which we didn't have. 85:34 Prof, I want to thank you for taking so much time to explain and reflect on your journey. You're obviously someone who has left an indelible imprint on our country, who has led in various institutions and has made a lasting contribution. So we thank you for joining us. We thank you for your fascinating insights, and we wish you all the best in the future. I have no doubt that your contributions are still far from over. 86:03 Wow. I want to thank you and your team. 86:07 Obviously, we have taken long, but some things, I think, as I say, I have often felt sad that I came back to South Africa as a scientist, but nobody remembers that. 86:18 In fact, even my... 86:22 My nephews and nieces, if you ask them, what does your uncle do? They say he's on television. 86:29 Well, we've set the record straight because I must say, I also didn't know the story of your scientific journey, your Oxford journey. So, Prof, thank you so much. Thank you very much. 86:39 Well, that's a story for another book anyway. 86:42 Oh, indeed, indeed. I hope it's coming. 86:44 Yeah, no, no. I'm busy with that one. 86:45 Ah, lovely, lovely, lovely. 86:47 Thank you very much. 86:48 Thank you. 86:48 Thank you guys. I think you have been very, you've been very patient. 86:53 Indeed. Like, share, subscribe. Help us reach our next milestone of half a million subscribers. We'll see you on the next one.